Computers: The Technical Thread [!OT]

[mrwiseman]

IRT SC: Oh, sorry, I had missed it, probably because I had the thread open since I saw your first post, and I was gathering information and replying to other threads before this; I never saw your second post... So here's the reply :

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">Can you play imported (NTSC) games on a PAL TV?
Uhmm probably a stupid question
But I want to be sure.</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Short version: Yes, don't worry . Long version (what's really happening ):

Yes, 99% of new PAL TVs, and about 80% of older PAL TVs, support PAL-60 signals.

Consoles will generate a PAL-60 signal for imports, and European games in 60 Hz mode.

PAL-60 is a non-standard (yet widely supported) hack of the PAL signal: instead of generating 25 625-line frames (interlaced, hence 50 Hz), it generates about 30 525-line frames (interlaced, hence 60 Hz). The same PAL standard is used (see note 1), only frames are shorter, and there are more of them in a second. The number of lines per second does not change, so TVs don't need higher H-freqs.

The 60 Hz mode has higher framerate, less flicker and less resolution, and it's better for gaming because most games are optimized for 60 Hz (see next question).

To know if your TV will play imports, just load any game which lets you choose from 50 or 60 Hz (most DC and GC games do, but very few PS2 games do (why??)). If your TV displays games in 60 Hz correctly, you won't have a problem with imports.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">And how come ps2 games are dependant of the frequency of the TV?
I mean I can play PC games in many frequencies.
Is it because of optimization?</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Short version: Yes . Long version:

Since TVs work at a fixed frequency (see note 2), console games are designed to sync with it (that's why they never have that tearing effect you get on PC games with V-Sync turned off). Japanese TVs work at 60 Hz, so most games are designed to sync to 60 Hz. Animations are usually relative to framerate (this is very bad for us BTW!). There's no point on making the game free from this and to run at for example 80 frames per second, as you won't be able to display as many frames, so developers try to load scenes with more complexity until they fully exploit the system at 60 Hz (see note 3). (Actually, not all games sync to 60 Hz, many of them sync to half of it, running at 30 fps. And when console games with bad sync'ing algorithms slow down, they might not slow down just a bit but temporally run at HALF of their normal speed (Crazy Taxi).)

Few developers care for 50 Hz versions of the games, so they usually end up doing some of these:
- Running slower (FFX), exactly at 5/6 (50/60) of the normal velocity
- Stuttering because of a dirty framerate conversion (Sonic Adventure (DC) in 50 Hz mode)
- Displaying black borders above and below the image (most games), because of PAL having more lines
- Showing the characters vertically shrinked, i.e. fatter and shorter, because of borders (characters are equally as high in lines, but PAL TVs have more lines).

That's why you should try to set your games to 60 Hz whenever you are given the choice, and why it's even good that imports will always run at 60 Hz .

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#E0E0E0"><font size=2 face="Verdana,Tahoma">And why do I never see any of the RPG games you mention in the stores in the Netherlands? </font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all of the Japanese RPGs get released outside Japan (they say it's because they wouldn't be profitable, but I don't buy that, they are being racist that's all). Plus not all of the RPGs released in America get released in Europe (they again say it's because of business, but I don't buy that either, the European videogames market is the second largest in the world, and if games cost the same as in America, they would sell just as well). Here's some info on them:

- Xenogears was never released in Europe, and it almost didn't make it to America. Consider yourself lucky you can play the game at all .
- Xenosaga will be released in Europe at the end of the year, in a hopefully improved version.
- .hack games will not be released in Europe.
- Suikoden 3 will not be released in Europe.
- All Final Fantasy games are released in Europe.
- Kingdom Hearts got released in Europe months later than in the USA, but it has a better ending the American version doesn't have.
- Grandia II has been released in Europe, although you should try to get the DC version of this great game; the PS2 version isn't as good due to hardware and bad conversion.
- Other PS2 RPGs, like Wild Arms 3, Shadow Hearts, Everblue 2, Evergrace, Summoner 1 and 2, Eternal Ring, etc. are available in Europe.

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Note 1: This means you won't lose the benefits from our PAL system - better luminance and colors. In fact, imported American games played on European consoles with European TVs and the European SCART cable, look better than the same American game played on an American console with an American TV and the American Component cable. (Heh, we get screwed with late releases most of the times; we deserve to have some advantages, right? )
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Note 2: TV standards:
American NTSC (525 lines/480 visible, 60 Hz, lower bandwidth): Used in North America, Japan and other regions
European PAL (625 lines/576 visible, 50 Hz, higher bandwidth): Used in most of Europe, Oceania and other regions
French SECAM (same as PAL): Used in France, Russia and other regions
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Note 3: Games slowing down at 60 Hz might not slow down at 50 Hz! This is the case of Shenmue 2 (Dreamcast).

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Whew, it was a long post... but fun to write. I hope it helped

[SmellyCat]

Your post was very helpful Wiseman.
You are a living 'how stuff works' website [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

I bought the playstation 2 (tired of searching for a better deal) and a European Final Fantasy X game and an imported Xenosaga game. For seeing if it all works.
I'll get it all before next week I think.

I'll let you all know if my experience with consoles will be a dissapointment or not
[img]tongue.gif[/img]

[mrwiseman]

Thanks! I'm glad it helped [img]smile.gif[/img] .

I hope everything works fine. That's a good choice of games, IMO Xenosaga is the very best PS2 game, and FFX is one of the best PS2 games (probably second after Xenosaga). Both of them are great RPGs. FFX shows some of the best to date PS2 realtime graphics (as well as FMV), and Xenosaga has wonderful story, characters, music and gameplay.

Here's some additional info on how these games will work:

- FFX has a lot of black borders on top and bottom; the PS2 wouldn't be able to handle the game with no slowdown if it weren't for these (they save a lot of fillrate and restrict visibility a little). Characters run slower (though you'll get easily used to it) and they are shorter. This game was desesperately crying for a 60 Hz switch, (I wonder why PS2 games never include these (is sony asking developers not to include it or what?).) However, you can take advantage of it if you have a 16:9 TV: this game looks very good in most 16:9 TVs in Zoom mode.

- Xenosaga will always play at 60 Hz and runs in full screen, which is ideal for 4:3 TVs. You can still stretch it if you have a 16:9 TV (esp. if it has panoramic/progressive/whatever they call it zoom), you'll get used to slightly fatter characters (and you'll end up liking it that way more than the original, at least I do).

I think FFX savegames took about 66 KB and Xenosaga savegames took about 134 KB. Both of them waste space (especially Xenosaga, which has a small JPEG screenshot), but with your 8 MB memory card (this is something the PS2 is strong at) you can have like 40 saved games of each, so don't worry. You might want to keep some savegames before interesting cut-scenes for partial replay.

[melfice]

Does XS save a snapshot of the game when you do a save?

[mrwiseman]

It saves a screenshot in JPEG format inside the savefile.

[Xellos]

You are a living 'how stuff works' website

LOL, that's the truth!

[SmellyCat]

Hi,
just got the playstation (+messiah 2 pro)
and already have a problem.
When I want to see a DVD movie I either have
a green image or black&white, depending on which way I put the switch on the Scart cable.

Anyone know what this is about?

[mrwiseman]

IRT SC: The Euro PS2s have a strange bug that looks more intentional than accidental: when viewing DVDs with a SCART cable you get green component only. Sony never fixed it, that's the weird thing. They sure got some obscure stuff going on with this. Anyways, the Messiah 2 chip fixs that, if they install it correctly. There's an extra cable they should solder so it's fixed. Ask in your local store. Sorry for the quick reply, I'm running out of time at the netcafe here.

[SmellyCat]

Hmm called the shop and they said it is probably because of the TV that I get a green image.
So I tried the playstation 2 on another TV and it worked fine there [img]confused.gif[/img]

[melfice]

Get a better TV [img]tongue.gif[/img] ...